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BDS
12/23/2009 03:48 PM
Bonnie,
It was a rebuttal of several points, not a character assassination.
No amount of "unmerited favour and kindness" and use of pen "softly and adroitly" will ever bring closer my way some one who chronically twists my statements and motives, those who disagree, and those of Mike Huckabee. This is one lost cause.
The other lost cause is hoping to get a fair shake from people who give the senior member of their social club full blanket immunity.
Are you appalled by your dear doctor asserting on the Open Discussion that Mike Huckabee cares nothing for economic conservatism and says only what he must in that regard in order to gain votes?
No, but you're certainly appalled that I would violate old-fashioned deference to seniors by rebutting that reckless mischaracterization of Mike Huckabee.
The culture that's apparently developed within these blogs lead me to believe that I need to make a decision:
1. Become an uncritical contributor of benign niceties, or
2. Just go away. -
Ron and Dottie in Fl
12/22/2009 10:34 PM
To Ben, Doctor David, Brian and especially Bonnie,
Bonnie, I second every thing you said to the three wise men.
Thank you and Merry Christmas to you and all your families.
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Schwab, Bonnie
12/22/2009 04:03 PM
Doctor David - I commend you for your heart purpose to look for the best in Brian Snow. I was surprised to hear of your move. I have never been to Maryland but it sounds like a major move and change to head out to California. Are you sure you want to go to that near bankrupt state? :) I look forward to your coming back here for more discourse. God bless your move and Merry Christmas to you and to Margaret!
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Schwab, Bonnie
12/22/2009 03:58 PM
Brian - Congratulations, you have succeeded in missing my point altogether and have chosen instead the rather well worn path you are accustomed to. I refer of course to your rebuttal to Doctor David on the Open Discussion thread where, with bold strokes and a lofty air, you have sought to leave your fellow member as a bleeding stump. I wonder what would have happened if you had granted Doctor David "unmerited favour and kindness" and offered an apology for lack of respect, and then, and only then, used your pen softly and adroitly, to bring him closer your way. I agree, I love the wisdom of Solomon, but how much more I love the words of the LORD, "love your neighbour...".
I am profoundly sorry and disappointed this day.
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Schwab, Bonnie
12/22/2009 03:45 PM
Ben - Thank you for your post. I thought it funny that we both remembered the same story of my reproof to you. I am still struck by the wisdom you display for your age. Have a Merry Christmas Ben!
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Dr. David
12/22/2009 06:37 AM
I just want to say that last night's message was written before I saw what Bonnie and Ben had to say, and I regret having said most of it. I am done criticizing. If anything I have said is helpful, I am glad. From now on, expect me to look for the good in what Brian Snow has to say. Goodbye for a few days as my family moves 3000 miles from professional life in Maryland to semi-retirement in California.
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BDS
12/22/2009 03:22 AM
Doctor David,
You cannot change history.
You did not refer to an idea, but to those of us who did not agree with your opinion of the 90% tax rate, as "the stupid ones." I already provided the link; you can go see for yourself.
You also referred to me during that time period as mentally unstable and fit to be committed to an institution. I'll find the thread and post a link here if you want proof.
It's in the record; you cannot wish it away.
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BDS
12/22/2009 03:15 AM
Thank you, Bonnie and Ben.
Bonnie, I disagree that deference to one's elders is absolute. The Good Book also says:
"Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young..."
I stand by this. No one should have to take judgment and condescension like that expressed in paragraph two of (12/21/2009 10:27 PM) below just because it comes from an "elder." We are to honor elders not merely because that's an old-fashioned value, but because we are to honor wisdom as a cardinal virtue - a virtue that tends to be found in our elders in greater abundance, generally. I said generally. Discernment and temperance are constituents of wisdom - constituents sorely lacking in P2 below, Doctor David's recent address (12/20) to me on the Open Discussion, and many other similar posts directed toward me.
No, deference to my elders is neither absolute nor irrevocable. Specifically, Doctor David has lost what special deference I would otherwise yield.
The second part of that Bible verse says:
"...but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity."
I admit that I do not "measure up" to this standard. You are right that I need to work on graciousness of speech (the pen, anyway).
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Dr. David
12/21/2009 10:27 PM
Brian, I try to write in general, not personal, terms, because I am more interested in ideas than in personalities. Most of us who comment at HuckPAC can disagree without being disagreeable. We don't think we know it all, and we want to know what others think. I value Bonnie's opinion greatly because I know it comes from an open heart. I might agree or disagree with her on any particular issue, but my respect for her only grows because of the way she presents herself.
I cringe every time you post anything. You come across like you just got off the boat. The culture has been degrading since before you were born. Obama's election will not turn the country into a socialist paradise. The health care bill will not be the death of the Republic. Your exhortations seem almost comical because you get your version of the truth from people like Rush Limbaugh who are paid millions of dollars a year to defend the economic elite in the Republican party who are complicit in the biggest problems America has. But what do you get for acting as his loyal representative?
Two other points. First, I once stated that we had a better country during the Eisenhower era when the top tax rate was 90% than we do now. I stand by that statement. Second, you asked me if I was referring to you when I said that some idea or other was dumb. I didn't answer because it was the idea I was talking about, not the person who expressed it. Why you didn't understand that, I don't know.
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Schwab, Bonnie
12/21/2009 07:23 PM
Brian - Deference may not equal immunity but grace trumps all. Remember I never said you couldn't or shouldn't disagree with Doctor David, or anyone else, or bring an offence before them. My criticism has been about the "how" and not so much the "what". There is a way to challenge others that shows respect. It involves an honest bringing forward of the matter, without resorting to name calling or making assumptions about motives. It may include how the matter has affected you. My sense has been that Doctor David has made his "harsh" comments to you from a position of retaliation to something you have said (I am disinclined to search the posts to see if that is absolutely accurate and I hope you don't either). And just for the record I don't think it's right for Doctor David or anyone else to resort to name calling. If you remember I once rebuked Ben Dribus for invoking "stupid" on a fellow poster, and I once rebuked Judge Deborah for excessive Palin promotion, I then foolishly called her foolish and had to apologize for name calling (no immunity for me).
I don't agree with everything Doctor David says, or others for that matter. But what I have learned about mind sets for instance, is that they will not be changed overnight, and to try to forcefully bend people to your way rarely works. A way to think about changing people's mind sets can be compared to trying to lead someone to Christ, it may take several encounters, and many conversations, but most of all it will take real demonstrations of the fruit of the Spirit to ultimately be persuasive.
I don't know why I have never confronted Doctor David for some of the things he has said. I think on some level I have thought maybe you had it coming, and on another level I felt that is was between the two of you. And if I was completely honest I would have to say I am truly guided by a principle that says I don't correct my elders. Good luck trying to change my mind set on that one! And here is another truth, I like Doctor David, I have had some nice exchanges with him and he has even come to my defence a time or two. I also like you, and I bring these things before you because I genuinely want you to succeed and to be a welcome contributor here.
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Ben Dribus
12/21/2009 06:13 PM
Brian,
Several times in my life I have been "put in my place" by older people, generally older women. About a year ago, our very own Bonnie "put me in my place" for being too condescending. I don't remember the details, but the result was that I often weighed the possibility of offending people or coming across as a know-it-all in trying to make my case. Of course, I have made many slip-ups in this regard since (some of them recent!) because it is my nature to become so passionate about an issue that I think too much about the debate and too little about the person at the other end.
The current tiff is particularly awkward for me because, as you may recall, it was I who suggested some time ago (in response to a troll) that HuckPACer's of a certain persuasion ought to circle the wagons instead of welcoming any new troublemaker (e.g. Defense, Marriage) who came in slandering the HuckPACer's on the "other side" of the debate.
The current situation is a little different though. Surely you see the impossibility of trying to mediate long-running disputes between other well-established members. How can anyone, including the participants themselves, recall the exact details of arguments from last year? More to the point, who would want to?
The unfortunate fact is that if an issue is being debated, people generally focus on responding to those arguing the opposite point of view, rather than looking for ways in which their ideological allies (on a given topic) may have transgressed the codes of propriety. I don't know about everyone else, but I am a busy man and I don't read every comment on every blog entry. I frequently notice your posts because you contribute often and highlight your points. Most of the time, the only way it comes into my consciousness that you have been slighted is because you respond in red or blue captital letters at the top of your post. Most people are not very interested in reading personal exchanges between other people, especially when they have nothing to do with the topic of discussion.
I don't recall trying to insult you myself, and I apologize if I have done so. I will remark, however, that I think Bonnie means exactly what she says; that is, the good as well as the bad. I believe her admiration for your intelligence, energy, and zeal are as great if not greater than her disapproval of some of the exchanges you've been a part of. I say this as another young man who has been admonished by her in the past and is grateful for her advice.
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Jill 4 America
12/21/2009 01:05 PM
Hello All Huckabeans! I miss you guys(the "Stars" of HuckPac). Your stars must be shining brightly this holy season! Staying busy here with duties on the home-front and nursing a husband with neck and shoulder pain who does not like to go to doctors. Maybe he will after the holidays. Too much blogging here for too long put me way behind.
Merry Christmas to all!Brian Snow
12/21/2009 02:27 AM
Brian - you make perfectly good sense to me. You are more than capable of coming to your own defense and certainly can stand alone on any argument. They say that all of us can learn from someone. Many would do well to learn from you. Respect for someone must be earned and I don't see it as being automatic regardless of age or position. Those who want respect must "give" respect.
It is WHO "God" says you are. Only "He" is all knowing. I find that to be a constant consolation in my life. If God be for us "WHO" can be against us? (Rom 8:31) Our enemies can come from some unexpected places sometimes.
Keep up the good work. You are a huge asset to HuckPac. At 36 yrs old, your intellectual grasp of the issues is impressive. In fact, HuckPac has a number of good writers. I seem to be in "sync" with your ideologies. -
BDS
12/21/2009 02:27 AM
Bonnie,
You are right in that I read too much into the apparent lack of interest here for discussing the Senate health care bill.
You are also right that the younger should show deference to their elders. I grew up in Oklahoma where I was taught always address my elders by "Mr," Mrs," "Sir," and "Ma'm," - never by first name - and I did so until I was almost 20 years old when one Mr. Weaver finally told me, "Brian, you can start calling me David."
However, extending deferences does not equal granting immunity.
Doctor David and I have very different world views. Some times he expresses an opinion that I'm okay with. Some times I'm ambivalent. But every once in a while he makes an assertion that to me is "off the rocker" or not factual. When I have presented information to the contrary, he often has retaliated by calling me names like "stupid," "ignorant," "juvenile," etc.
Where was your call for tact in those instances, Bonnie? Or do you grant immunity to Dr. David by virtue of his age?
Let me give you one of many examples. You were current on the thread for this one. Back in March, Doctor David was asserting his opinon that taxing the rich at 90% is a good thing because, as it was when he was a boy, there is a supposed correlation between that and people's general happiness and goodwill. Jeremy Johnson, a few others, and I just would not subscribe to his theory, and in retaliation, he underhandedly referred to us as "the stupid ones." Jeremy and I thereafter repeatedly asked him for clarification as to who his "stupid ones" are, and he refused to answer us. The whole thing is right here: http://www.huckpac.com/?Fuseaction=Blogs.View&Blog_id=2069&CommentPage=18#Comments
There are more examples where this came from.
Were you "appalled" then, Bonnie?
I may get pushy or hot under the collar some times here, but I don't go calling people "stupid," "mentally unstable" (yes, he called me that on another occasion) because they challenge my assertions.
So why the free pass for Doctor David, but all the onus on me? Why do you, Sunny and Ben completely overlook all the ugly disrespect that Dr. David hurls at those who disagree with him, but if I turn up the volume on my opinion, I'm the bad guy? Why? WHY?
I once worked for a man in his mid-sixties who had one glass eye. He was Mr. Charming around the ladies, would greet them with a warm hug and a kiss on the cheek. But this same man was Mr. Sternface, had nothing but cold hard glances, for the young men who worked for him. One day Mr. Sternface called me into his office and described for me in general terms an accusation that one of my female coworkers had brought against me. When I asked for the specifics of the accusation and the name of my accuser, his retort was basically, "You listen here, son, I'm going to tell this to you as from a father to a son..." and about how I needed to shape up. No hearing my side. To this day, I don't even know what it was that I did that supposedly offended some woman. Respect was not a two-way street with Mr. Sternface. I was supposed to just shut up and sit down and take it because he was older and I was younger. And don't forget that all the ladies loved him because he was Mr. Charming to them.
I really feel in my heart that that's the dynamic that goes on here. Mr. Insult-hurler gets immunity from the gang, but I guarantee you that if I hurled those same insults, you and others would be "appalled."
Deference does not equal immunity.
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Schwab, Bonnie
12/20/2009 06:15 PM
Brian - I have developed my opinion and sense about you over the two years that Gov. Huckabee has had a website available for comments. The seconding of the Captain Obvious motion was more like the straw that broke the camels back. I still find it a little troubling that you think our short comments here on any given day are wholly indicative of all that we care about at that moment in time.
You asked, "what would I do differently?". In my earlier post I was recommending "tact" (an intuitive appreciation of what is fit, proper or right - a skill in avoiding what would offend or disturb). When bringing issues to the table I would bring them knowing that some, or none, may be responded to. It happens all the time, and not just to you. I would come knowing that my best chance at bringing someone around to my idea would be first to have clear knowledge of that issue, and to then honour others with good will and respect. And if someone brought their offence to me, I would hope that I would not retaliate with a record of wrongs, but rather say, "I'm sorry I wronged you, will you forgive me?".
And I know you didn't ask me about this but I will say it anyway; your interaction with Doctor David has been appalling to observe. I do not blame him for bringing his offence before you and I don't see how you could characterize his doing so as a dog pile? No one says you have to agree with Doctor David, but in my old-fashioned book it is absolutely necessary to grant deference to this man who is at least a generation older than you! You need to make it right with him, and I'm sure he will in turn make it right with you. Let's remember, we're on the same team here, and it should be a "big tent" team!
Brian you are an intelligent person, a gifted writer, a fastidious administrator and a zealous man. Add to that a little wisdom, grace and "tact" and you will do enormously well.
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Dr. David
12/20/2009 10:18 AM
Brian Snow 12/20/2009 04:13 AM. I don't need to read what Wikipedia defines as social justice. I have read the Bible. The day Governor Huckabee stops fighting for social justice is the day I will stop fighting for him. I doubt that day will ever come.
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BDS
12/20/2009 04:13 AM
Doctor David (12/19/2009 08:05 PM):
For context, and for historical accuracy, here's the "eat crow" photo to which you refer (click then scroll 30% down):
http://my.huckpac.com/?Fuseaction=Blogs.View&Blog_id=2069&CommentPage=11#CommentsNow, what with Ben Nelson and the Republic going down in flames, I have better things to do than continue to cast my pearls...
The record will show that the occasion for the plate of crow was your stubborn and repeated denial of Gov. Huckabee's own recorded testimony that his pro-life beliefs prompted him to go into politics. Furthermore, you insulted him by suggesting: "For that, I would have thought he would have stayed in the ministry where he could have done some good." Therefore, when I delivered to you Gov. Huckabee's own testimony in printed word, I handed you also a plate of crow.Similarly, you expended considerable effort on these blogs this year denying that Obama is a radical leftist, instead defending him as "mainstream," in spite of the volumes of history and evidence that were presented to you.
Now, you project upon Gov. Huckabee another of your delusions: that he is an agent of "social justice." Be it known that "social justice" is a leftist euphemism for a bag of their utopion pursuits including:
* Economic egalitarianism
* Progressive taxation
* Income redistribution
* Property redistributionFor more on Social Justice, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
In light of your advocacy on these blogs of a 90% tax rate on "the rich" and your open contempt for them, perhaps you are sympathetic to some of those leftist ideals, but you blaspheme Mike Huckabee by claiming that he promotes "social justice," in whole or in part. Nothing in his position statements posted on his campaign web site, here at Huck PAC, or anywhere else can be rationally construed as a subscription to "social justice." You are gravely mistaken at best. Let me set the record straight:
MIKE HUCKABEE IS NOT A PROPONENT OF "SOCIAL JUSTICE"!
Similarly, you now ascribe to me in P2 of your recent post a complete load of bunk, falsely accusing me of consistently expressing political philosophies indistinguishable from the big bosses, America wreckers, and their mouthpieces who are Mike Huckabee's enemies. I wonder whether you do this in the hope of finally discarding me by vilifying me by proxy to Mike's enemies - both real and imagined - whom you love to hate. I'm calling you on the carpet: show me the evidence, my statements that suggest a consistent pattern of being party to Gov. Huckabee's enemies. You cannot do it, and you will produce no credible or substantial evidence. Why, because you have fabricated this entire accusation; you are deluded or you are a liar.
The bottom line is that it chafes you greatly that a man half your age (I am 36, not an "adolescent") whose name is not suffixed by "Ph.D." dares to present information - the truth - that dispels some of your dangerous fantasies that you promulgate on this site.
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Ben Dribus
12/20/2009 01:33 AM
So much to say and no time to say it. Anyway, I guess we know how much it costs to buy a senator now, don't we?
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Dr. David
12/19/2009 08:05 PM
Brian Snow 12/19/2009 02:48 PM. I believe you and I have two serious problems. One is communication style. Our relationship was damaged early on when you attached a picture of a dead crow on a plate as a gesture to indicate that you thought you were correct and I was incorrect about some subject. I thought that was profoundly disrespectful at the time, and have not seen any change in your attitude since then. We are not age peers, and what might be funny between two adolesecents is not so funny between two people of very different ages and experience who don't have a pre-existing relationship to buffer the insult.
But the deeper problem is a difference of opinion over what Mike Huckabee stands for or should stand for. You have consistently taken political positions that those Republicans who opposed Mike Huckabee during the 2008 campaign stood for. None of the Republican elite think Mike can be trusted to continue the pattern of keeping the salaries of the big bosses sky high while shipping jobs overseas and wrecking the American economy. Your expressed philosophy is indistinguishable from theirs, and it is worded like those who are their public mouth pieces. You have ignored the views of others, including myself, that Mike Huckabee is a unique Republican because he actually cares about the guy on Main Street, and that the fight is more about the entrenched establishment than the hated liberals. Huckabee's insistence on social justice is what makes him anathema to the right wing and beloved by independents and even some Democrats. He will not change in that regard, nor will I.
The content of your comments is rarely a humble attempt to inform, and invariably an attempt to persuade, usually at the top of your voice. The fact is that thinking people don't want to be told how to think, or what to do. We need to diagnose the disease before we start exclaiming about what must be done immediately to stave off a disaster. None of us here has all the answers, the issues are not black and white, or cut and dried, as you make them out to be. Just remember, it's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
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Ron and Dottie in Fl
12/19/2009 04:26 PM
To Ben,
If it makes any difference. I like your latest reply a little better. I do feel Sarah Palin was just or more qualified than some of the candidates running in both parties. Has anyone ever rejected, when picked to be a Vice President running mate. From what I understood, Sarah Palin was building a reputation as one of the better Governors of all the 50 states. Enough about Sarah Palin, I rest my defense.
I probably shouldn't go down this road without doing a little research first. I think I will just ask a question or two of people who can fill in the blanks on the subject of foundations.
The reason I am asking is some of the talk show host have been pushing the Heritage Foundation. I heard yesterday in a solitation for members. The Heritage Foundation is the largest and strongest think tank for the Republican Party. At least that is what I think I heard.
I have often wondered why the Heritage Foundation does not promote the Fair Tax. Is it possible that some foundations are getting too influencial in politics.
Another reason why i am thinking this is the PEW Foundation has their hands in Envoronment, global Warming and other areas. It appears they are instrumental in closing Red Snapper Fishing on the Atlantic Coast.
I am going to start doing some research on Foundations and start a folder on the same. Going up against lobbyists is bad enough.
Ron
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BDS
12/19/2009 02:48 PM
Bonnie,
I think my "tack" that you find objectionable began with my post on (12/15/2009 09:13 PM) "seconding" a motion that Captain Obvious made on the Open Discussion that we talk less about 2012 and more about the candidates and issues that Gov. Huckabee presents here.
Sincerely asking, if you felt that this community were neglecting a critically important issue by evidence of the content of the discussion, how would have approached it differently? What do you suggest?
-------------Doctor David, James Joyce wrote a semi-autobiographical entitled "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man." When I read your post of 12/19/2009 07:50 AM, I thought it must be the Cliffs Notes for a bad knockoff entitled "A Reflection of the Author as a Young Man."
Condescending? Who here engages in naked insult lobbing toward those who challenge his assertions?
Extreme? Who here has advocated for a return to a 90% tax rate on "the rich" as in the '40s and '50s because supposedly there is a correlation between confiscatory tax rates and people being happier and caring more for their fellow man as they were back when the author was a boy?
Ignorant? Who here, in spite of the presentation of mountains of historical evidence, has insisted repeatedly that B.O. is a mainstream president?
Self-appointed? Who here blew his blog police whistle a few months back because another commenter dared to headline his comments in red and blue text?
If Bonnie or anyone else wants to tell me that they did not like my "tack," then I can process that, maybe even offer an apology. For others to dogpile on, take cheap shots, and hurl insults, however, is unhelpful, to say the least, and may indicate untoward character issues of their own.
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Dr. David
12/19/2009 07:50 AM
Schwab, Bonnie 12/18/2009 04:36 PM. I share your feelings as expressed exactly. I come here to exchange views with other social conservatives who support Mike Huckabee, not be condescended to by a youngster with the kind of orientation that most Americans reject out of hand, who appoints himself a leader, and thinks he can bully others into falling in line. I find his combination of ignorance and arrogance appalling, and interpret his insensitivity to criticism as evidence that he is quite accustomed to it. I think he is on his way to being badly bruised by life until he learns a better way of relating to others.
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Ben Dribus
12/18/2009 11:10 PM
Ron and Dottie,
Time will tell. I believe your standpoint is an outworking of your charitable attitude, and I hope you don't think I'm generally judgmental of other people; as an ordinary person I would be glad to hear her side of it and believe the best I could. But when a person puts himself/herself into a position of leadership where he/she can either do great good or great damage, the standard is different. Then we have to make our most honest assessment, not our most forgiving one. Too much is at stake. During election 2008, we were burned time and time again by people who we thought were "on our side." It reminds me of the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
P.S. In my opinion, the patriotic thing to do would have been to say, "I appreciate the honor but I must decline because I'm not ready." She wasn't. And isn't.
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Ron and Dottie in Fl
12/18/2009 09:12 PM
To Ben Dribus
12/18/2009 06:49 PMI am sorry, I keep staying positive about Sarah Palin, it's just my nature. I don't believe Sarah Palin has done anything for me to think she is not a true blooded American (Alaskan) Conservative.
It would have been a moot point if Sen. McCain did not ask her to be his running mate. Like I said before, she dropped what she was doing because she is an American Patriot. Palin has been having to deal with the people who have been searching for skeletons in her closet ever since. Regardless of what you write, I believe it was even to the point where she could no longer do her job as Governor of Alaska. Kind of like the paparotzi shadowing you all the time. Palin cared so much for Alaska and her family, she handed off the role of Governor to her Lt. Governor.
I was glad that she was able to walk away with a book deal and have a site similar to Huckpac.
It is wrong that people can file lawsuits and not worry about repercussions. It cost the Palin family and Alaska close to 2 million dollars. The people doing the suing were not going to let up as long as Palin was Governor of Alaska. It should be the loser pays and be held accountable.
While talking about law suits. Suit settled out of court needs to be made public. It could have saved peoples lives, examples being firestone tires on Ford Explorers. Most lawsuits are settled out of court so they won't be made public.
We need to try and walk in someones shoes before being critical. Everything I have seen about Sarah Palin has been positive.
Ron
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Dr. David
12/18/2009 08:45 PM
Brian Snow 12/18/2009 05:35 PM. I did see Mike Huckabee's plea for action, and thought of you. However, he can reach tens of thousands with his thoughts, while you and I don't quite have his influence. Whether those calls and letters will make a difference, I don't know, but I don't see how they could unless there was an overwhelming number. As I said earlier, it's a numbers game.
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BDS
12/18/2009 08:40 PM
Thank you, Ben, for making that call to Landrieu.
I applaud you for putting country above self. I would that we had medical reform that slashed your meds costs while preserving Life and Liberty, not slashing MediCare and driving up costs, taxes or the national debt.
Bonnie, the preponderance of evidence, i.e. comments, here in recent memory suggests that, except for about three of us, the looming health care bill was not a concern. People talk about what they are concerned about, what is priority in their minds, and health care legislation was not one of those things. Yet, we are on, as President Obama recently put it, "a precipice."
Props to Governor Huckabee for rallying us with today's post on the matter.
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Cullen, Lola
12/18/2009 07:51 PM
2012...
First Choice...Mike Huckabee
Second Choice...Sarah Palin
Mitt Romney is a deal breaker for me. You might as well vote for Obama If you vote for Romney...
HUCKABEE/PERINO 2012!!!!!
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Ben Dribus
12/18/2009 06:49 PM
Brian, by the way, you're right that my concern about the viability of Christian conservative clout would be irrelevant to the "Palin vs. Huckabee discussion" IF I believed Palin to be a Christian conservative in the sense of being primarily motivated by Christian conservative values. I don't. What has she sacrificed for the cause? Everything she has done and said that social conservatives applaud her for was to her own political advantage. On the other hand, she has done plenty to make me think she ISN'T motivated by any core values. She should have finished her term, but quit so she could make money and gain notoriety in the lower 48. I don't buy her lame explanation for why she quit. She changed some positions to go along with McCain. Do you really think she of all people would have been for the bailout if it hadn't been for McCain? How about the "two-state-solution?"
Then she strained out a gnat and swallowed a camel (or should I say moose?) on the Clemmons issue. It's irrelevant whether she agreed with Huckabee's decision (or even had an opinion!). The first thing (politically) any conservative should have been thinking was "what a crock to pin this on Huckabee." Instead she took the low road. The important thing is not her insignificant little jab itself, but what it reveals about her viewpoint and mode of operation. If she were in a battle and her comrade in arms was shot right next to her, she would probably use him as a doorstop or stepladder, or at least go through his clothes for loose change. She's terribly practical. That's why she seems to know nothing at all besides what has been required to get to the next place she wants to go.
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Talk, Frank
12/18/2009 06:03 PM
Social conservatives are taking over the Republican party. No doubt about that. 2008 was a strong step in that direction, andn the wave of social conservatives moving into party since then has continued and will continue more through 2012.
The social conservatives (most but not all of them Christian) will be the dominant force in the 2010 midterms and the 2012 primaries. It's a simple numbers game, and there will be more social conservatives voting in the republican primaries than there will be traditional Wall Street type republicans.
Romney will top out at about a third of the Republican voters -- about the same as in 2008.
Of course, the traditional Republicans don't like the social conservatives' growing dominance and have been throwing fits about it for several years. But the numbers are all that count, and the numbers are *way* on the side of the social conservatives.
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BDS
12/18/2009 05:35 PM
Dr. David,
Regarding your opinion (12/18/2009 12:07 PM) that expressing our opinions to our elected officials after elections is practically futile, I refer you to Gov. Huckabee's most recent post:
http://my.huckpac.com/?Fuseaction=Blogs.View&Blog_id=2923Regarding your last paragraph: ?!!
Otherwise, thank you for delivering that morsel handed down from that council of venerated sages.
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Schwab, Bonnie
12/18/2009 04:36 PM
Brian Snow - I appreciate your deep concern over the health care reform bill and I have many times applauded in my heart your zeal for "doing something". I have often wondered why there is not more outward response to the issues you bring to the table and I speculate that people feel offended at times by your badgering, condescending, and accusatory tone? I can't tell you how offended I feel when you suggest that if I make a comment about 2012 that I couldn't possibly be actively involved and concerned about the issues of today? It's a little like saying I can't walk and chew gum at the same time! I recommend that if you want a leadership role you take a different tact and tone when presenting your commentary here, lest your compatriots think B.S. stands for "Bully in the Sandbox" and not Brian Snow!
To all: Please take time today to agree in prayer for the defeat of the health care reform bill.
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Ben Dribus
12/18/2009 04:15 PM
Brian,
We both probably tailor our focus among different groups of people in different ways. I haven't discussed the health care debate much here because everyone here seems to agree that the bill is bad and should be voted down.
I did end up contacting Senator Landrieu, but not Senator Vitter. You are probably aware that Senator Vitter is firmly against the bill. Some time ago I believe there was a discussion here between you and someone else about the utility of contacting the senators (especially democratic ones). You argued it was crucial; the other person implied it would do no good. I eventually decided that even though I think it will do no good in this case, we can hardly complain about what our representatives do if we don't tell them what we want. Basically I told her that as one of the very few whom the bill might help (at first!), I urge her to vote against it anyway for the sake of the country. I also discussed some technical provisions of the bill that I think are a problem, but of course the bill changes every day. In any case, she is all gung-ho for the bill now, and will pay no attention. But if one does nothing in these cases because it "won't make a difference," one may as well not vote either, or carry out any of the other duties of responsible citizenship. Everyone must act as if his efforts will make a difference, no matter how hopeless it seems.
P.S. By "amoral economic conservatives," I mean "economic conservatives who also happen to be amoral." If you were such, you wouldn't be here. By the way, I am also an economic conservative, and so is Mike Huckabee, whatever some may say.
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Ron and Dottie in Fl
12/18/2009 12:26 PM
To Rayborn, Linda
12/17/2009 10:11 PMSarah Palin is using her resources toward campaigning for Conservatives in the 2010 elections. Mike Huckabee is doing the same thing with Huckpac. I support Sarah Palin and Mike Huckabee in that effort. I appreciate the fact Sarah Palin has a voice in main stream world. My support for Palin has nothing to do with 2012. I am just glad she is on the side of the Conservatives.
Ron
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Dr. David
12/18/2009 12:07 PM
Rayborn, Linda 12/17/2009 10:11 PM. I agree with you completely, except I am not so sure that Romney's business experience would translate to wise choices in spending the people's money. But he would be heads and shoulders above Palin.
Brian Snow 12/17/2009 08:35 PM. I believe the time to act is BEFORE an election, not AFTER it. My energies are spent attempting to persuade others (people I meet) that Mike Huckabee would make a great President, because it takes time to change people's minds, and millions of minds need to be changed.
Once the leaders are in, they will do what they think is right (or serve the special interests). There is little you or I can do now (outside of prayer) about health care reform or cap and trade legislation, because we do not have the leverage of the lobbyists in Washington. But there is a lot we will be able to do if Mike becomes the President, because he has made it clear what he would do.
I also focus on Huckabee because he is the kind of candidate who would operate in the interests of ALL the people, not just the icy-hearts on the right, or the mushy-headed on the left.
Finally, I have to say that your strident tone makes it sound as though you actually believe the nonsense broadcast by Rush Limbaugh and others like him. Every time I hear another caller to the Limbaugh program say "it is an honor to meet you, sir!" I wonder what has become of this great country since I was a boy in the 1950s, when people knew that patriots serve the whole country, not just the haves or the have-nots.
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Rayborn, Linda
12/17/2009 10:11 PM
I notice there is much discussion here about Palin vs. Huckabee. May I just say that many Huckabee supporters do not favor/support Sarah Palin. I would much prefer to support Gov. Romney over Palin. He has more experience, is a successful businessman and although he changes positions more than a chameleon changes colors, I trust that he could do the job. That said, I don't believe it will ever be necessary for me to actually vote for Gov. Romney because I fully expect Gov. Huckbee to run in 2012.
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BDS
12/17/2009 09:55 PM
Ben,
If you are convinced that the fight you describe is priority even now, then go fight it, and do well. I'll probably join you at some point. I think our fundamental disagreement is what the priorities should be in this season.
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BDS
12/17/2009 08:35 PM
Bonnie, thank you for the affirmation.
Ben, you make perfectly clear what "Huck 2012" talk represents to you, and I believe you.
I assume you don't presume to know that everyone else's comments regarding "Huck 2012" are, as you put it, "NOT ABOUT A POTENTIAL HUCKABEE CANDIDACY!" and that rather, for everyone else here also, "Huck 2012" is really metaphorical or code for intra-political or intra-movement power dynamics. I take their comments at face value.
My complaint was not regarding your numero uno politcal concern as you've expressed it, nor was it that anyone would desire for Huck to run in 2012. My complaint was that the dominant topic here of late seems to me to be neither pertinent nor helpful to the train of battles we must fight at this very hour in order to keep Liberty from being snatched away forever by the ruling tyrants.
Going back to your "two Titanics" analogy, I believe that the second Titanic is so far behind the first Titanic that has already struck the iceburg, there is time to save the survivors of the first, then go back and make course correction to the second.
I would caution you not to demonize economic conservatives. I am an economic conservative and a social conservative. I would qualify your statement thusly: Not all economic conservatives are amoral; some are amoral.
In the context of the "Palin v. Huck" discussions that go on here, the conspiracy you have stated ("[THE] ONGOING EFFORT TO BAR CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVES FROM THE POLITICAL PROCESS IN THIS COUNTRY!") is a non-sequitur.
What fruit (besides talking among ourselves) would you have us produce to effect change in the arena that is your concern? What that is doable, practical?
I hope to have prompted others to fight the present battle with me by communicating with their officials as I have done.
My take here on the whole is that instead of joining in the effort to stave off the wildfires that encroach at this hour, too many people here are hanging back at the station discusing who would make a better FD chief in three years.
Everyone: Correct me if my perception is not reality. If you've been fighting the fight now, and it just isn't apparent by what you discuss here, I'd love to know.
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Ben Dribus
12/17/2009 03:11 PM
Brian,
You're right that we still don't quite understand each other, but I think we are getting closer.
Please take a look at my 12/16/2009 02:59 PM post again. My very first point was that THIS IS NOT ABOUT A POTENTIAL HUCKABEE CANDIDACY!
It's about the national political power structure, which is currently so tilted against us that failure to address the root problems makes all other efforts a waste of time.
I said, "any Christian conservative without ties to Wall Street has an almost impossibly difficult path to the GOP nomination." I believe that this is true, and that the same is true for many if not most other high offices at a national level. And the reason is not the Democrats, it's the amoral "economic conservatives" who control Fox News, Talk Radio, and the national republican party.You're worried about the outcome of the process; I'm worried about our ability to even participate in the process!
Don't you remember that Mike Huckabee won my state in 2008 and got no delegates?
Don't you remember how campaign finance law kept us from even being heard while rich Wall Streeters funnelled hundreds of thousands apiece into attack ads against us?
Don't you remember the cancelled debates, the disparity in debate times, the 24/7 use of talk radio against us, the marginalization of anyone who supported us? The primary schedule front-loaded with winner-take-all contests in big socially liberal states?
NONE OF THIS WAS DUE TO THE DEMOCRATS, AND NONE OF IT WAS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE OF MIKE HUCKABEE! IT WAS PART OF AN ONGOING EFFORT TO BAR CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVES FROM THE POLITICAL PROCESS IN THIS COUNTRY!
We can't compete if these conditions remain as they are.
You're right that it is out of the overflow of the heart that the mouth speaks. I think that this choking off of our influence at the root is the most important issue we face. Knowing what I know, I'd be a fool not to.
P.S. You must know that no PAC can "officially" cultivate presidential runs this far out.
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Keen, Brently
12/17/2009 02:24 PM
C'mon Team we gotta focus, here. Do you know what is going on?
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2009/12/17/senate-democrats-subvert-the-rules-of-order/
How are we gonna stop this? How is this all that different than what happened in the Honduras?
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Schwab, Bonnie
12/17/2009 01:29 PM
Brian Snow - Thank you for posting your letters to Senators regarding health care reform. Your messages are well crafted and passionate and they surely inspire others to do the same. You do a great service to all by your actions.
Fellow Huckpac'ers - Please join me today in prayer agreement for the defeat of the health care reform bill. Even if all you have is five minutes we can stop this "thing" through prayer. Thank you.
Found this press release this morning as a link off the Drudge Report - it may help you know how to pray:
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Walter, Gary
12/17/2009 08:45 AM
I'm with you Ben. We must be working NOW- 2012 will be here before we know it!
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BDS
12/17/2009 03:46 AM
DEAR SENATOR COBURN
RE: HEALTH CARE BILLDecember 17, 2009
The Honorable Tom Coburn, M.D.
United States Senate
172 Russell Senate Office Bldg.
Washington, DC 20510Dear Senator Coburn:
Thank you for having the courage to insist on the reading of Senator Sanders’ amendment yesterday. I could almost cry from the relief of finally knowing that at least one Republican senator understands that nothing less than Liberty is at stake as long as Senator Reid and the President pursue this obsession that is the health care abomination bill.
O, that your act of courage has served to inspire your fellow Republicans to rise up as warrior-patriots and fight this historic battle to save Liberty. The American people will, and have already begun to, rally to you.
I trust that you are coordinating likeminded senators in also insisting on the full reading of the coming health care bill and other amendments. Please use every tool available to push the bill as far past Christmas as possible. Please keep the PR game up, and keep the American people informed. Perhaps we can avert this disaster after a few senators get a fresh dose of reality from their constituents during the holidays.
Senator Coburn, this native Oklahoman (grew up in Tulsa) wants you to know that you are a hero. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Brian Snow -
BDS
12/17/2009 02:50 AM
DEAR SENATOR NELSON
RE: HEALTH CARE BILLDecember 17, 2009
The Honorable Ben Nelson
United States Senate
720 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510Dear Senator Nelson:
Thank you for holding fast to your side – America’s side – of that line you drew in the sand regarding federal funding for abortion.
Please don’t be deceived into exchanging your vote for hollow concessions only to have those shady operators put the very content we abhor back in the bill thereafter.
I never cease to be amazed at the capacity of good people to commit nefarious or insane acts when running with the herd – perhaps to please a leader or the group. There’s no bravery, no heroism in that. No, you are a hero for standing apart on principle.
I hope that other brave Democrats will step up to share your awful burden. But even if it appears you are standing alone, please know that I and a super-majority of Americans are right there with you in spirit and in the hope that Liberty will be preserved.
Sincerely,
Brian Snow -
David and Eleanor
12/17/2009 12:45 AM
I apologize for bringing up "the question" again but thank you, Lindsey, for answering it.
I agree that we should be focusing our time and effort right now on stopping health care "deform". I have mailed and called our two Virginia senators several times and plan to continue after Christmas if necessary. We got an email alert from a conservative action group saying that neither of them are totally committed to this health care bill, especially Senator Webb. I guess the recent November election results have made them a little "nervous". Overall it's probably worth targeting those moderate Democrats who are in conservative leaning states.
Merry Christmas everyone,
- Eleanor -
Schwab, Bonnie
12/17/2009 12:38 AM
Ben - You may need to expect to have your "poor man" status enhanced - I can't imagine anyone not taking you up on your offer to match donations to your donor code up to $50! Wow, that's generous! God bless you! Also, way to hammer your point home in your 12/16/09 post @ 2:59 p.m.
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Ben Dribus
12/16/2009 07:29 PM
Here's an article in The Daily Beast listing Mike Huckabee as 5th among GOP presidential contenders for 2012, behind Romney, Palin, Pawlenty, and Thune, and just ahead of Scarborough (?!?)
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-12-16/the-return-of-mitt-romney/
Obviously our opponents don't believe it's too early to start thinking about 2012.
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Captain Obvious
12/16/2009 04:56 PM
PS..I didn't say it was a bad time to WORK toward Huckabee 2012--I said it is not the time to TALK TOO MUCH about it. ;)
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Keen, Brently
12/16/2009 04:38 PM
This is the American Solutions ad for the COP15 Summit:
http://www.americansolutions.com/pdf/CopenhagenSummitNewspaper_Ad_v6.pdfIf the link doesn't work just copy and paste it into your browser. (Would someone please tell me what I need to do to post a link? It hasn't been working for me lately.)
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BDS
12/16/2009 04:14 PM
Ben and Friends,
Although the moderator will allow you to post almost anything here that is in good taste, you should know that Huck PAC HQ has forbidden Huck PAC/Team Huck State Coordinators and County/Group Leaders, etc. from promoting or entertaining the proposition of a Huck presidential run in 2012. It's official policy. Now why would that be? Because it's completely outside the scope of Huck PAC.
Yet, I'll estimate that close to 50% (if not more) of the chatter on these threads in recent memory is about what Palin would mean for Huck 2012, and so forth and so on.
Bonnie replied to my complaint on the Open Discussion that she's sure that the people who spend so much time discussing Huck 2012 also are putting energies into 2010 and into the current events that have at least some of us so concerned. Maybe. But here's a scripture for you:
"For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks."Using your Titanic analogy, Huck 2012 is a ship that's not even in the water. In fact, we don't know if that ship even exists. How are you going to feel come Spring 2011 if Huck decides not to enter the lineup (as he has already indicated he is inclined not to do), and you've spent 1.5+ years talking mostly about Palin versus Huckabee 2012 when you could have done more about Cap-and-Trade or Obamacare, either of which will ultimately turn the entire country into Detroit? Heck, at the current rate of leftist usurpation, we may not even get a real election in 2012.
I've posted here several of my recent letters to senators which, with maybe two exceptions, have gone ignored. But there's no end to the chatter about what Palin might mean for Huck in 2012.
It's your right. It's still a free country (for a while longer).
But still: I. Don't. Get. It.
*Sigh*
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Keen, Brently
12/16/2009 04:06 PM
Beware of the "Manager's Amendment" Sen Nelson!
http://www.lifenews.com/nat5777.html
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Captain Obvious
12/16/2009 04:05 PM
Oh Golly, Ben,
I don't think your efforts are at all "useless". You have oft impressed me with the depth of your knowledge and the wisdom of your commentary.
However, I do see a danger in getting ahead of the leadership. Don't you think what HuckPAC is doing now is laying a strong groundwork should Governor Huckabee decide to run in 2012?
